It's odd. The number of asylum hotels
has gone down from 400 to 200. The
government does seem to be doing as much
as it can in many ways. It's already
returned 35,000. It's it's got a whole
lot of new policies. It's got returns
agreements. It's, you know, it's trying
to get through the backlog left by the
Conservatives. And yet, this is the
summer when there are so many protests
against the asylum hotels. Why is that?
Why do you think it is? Is it because
you've just had enough? You've been
putting up with it for too long and now
is the time when enough is enough? Or is
it because there are politicians such as
Robert Generick or or Nigel Farage who
talk about that and not much else and
this is their big issue and and they
come up with kind of what seem to be
fairly simple solutions to it. Is it
because the media are not talking about
anything else? And listen, I'm as guilty
as anyone else. I've put it on my first
hour of of time on LBC. But I'd like to
know what it is that people people think
because it is something that we are all
discussing. I mean let I mean the things
that the government has done they've had
they've had a massive raid in Belgium
where they've uh picked up a shipment of
a huge shipment of small boats. They've
stopped 12,000 crossings uh by working
with the French. They've got this
returns pilot with the French. They're
they're uh they've got this Bordersville
bill bill where they're going to
introduce counterterrorism powers for
small gangs. They've got a sanctions
regime against against smugglers.
They're going to look again at the ECR
and work with Europe on potentially
amending it. Um they've got
international intelligence agreements
with India, with Bulgaria, with Romania.
They've got a joint action plan with
Vietnam. I mean, it's boring. There's
lots of detail, but they are trying. So,
I mean, is it because it isn't exciting
enough? Is it because the government's
not explaining well enough what it is
that they're doing? Or is it that
they're missing the obvious and there is
something else that should be should be
done? I think the the issues that we're
seeing um at the moment in terms of
people, you know, pro protesting outside
asylum hotels, I think it's it's it's
being lost in why I think it's happening
and I'll explain why. So, I think at the
moment the UK is obviously facing a lot
of problems in a lot of different areas.
You know, the NHS is something that is
struggling. You know, it's
underresourced. It's it's understaffed.
Um, as we can see by things like ongoing
industrial action as well by doctors and
nurses, you know, young people
struggling to get on the property ladder
because of, you know, extortionately
high mortgage interest rates and, you
know, even people that are graduating
from university struggling to get into
work. So, I think people are just a
little bit, you know, disenfranchised by
all of the issues and I think this is
probably a distraction from why this
might be happening. Um because generally
I think there's not a country in the
world that is more accepting of people
from different backgrounds than is the
UK. The UK is an amazing country. You
know it's very very you know tolerant
towards people from all different
backgrounds. Um and I can say that
really proudly. You know my my parents
have brought me up here. I was born in
the UK. You know but we are of Indian
origin. And you know, we've never faced
any level of discrimination
um or anything of that sort. And I think
the race riots that happened last
summer, they're not really reflective at
all because, you know, in every society,
you'll get certain individuals that are
just doing these, you know, atrocious
things. And I don't think that that is a
is a a fair reflection of of of how, you
know, amazing the UK is towards people
of all different backgrounds.
>> I agree with you. I agree with you. And
I I'm really proud of our country
because it is so mixed and it makes us a
better country, you know, because we
have lots of different people and we and
and the mixing, you know, is in itself
creative and makes us, you know, pushes
us and and um and our economy does
better and we learn from each other and
we have much better creative industries
and and the just the stimulation of
having people from all sorts of
backgrounds is is definitely a positive
and I I absolutely I'm proud to
represent into a constituency where, you
know, we have we have dozens and dozens
of languages spoken um in my
constituency, people from all over the
world um living in Islington, all on top
of each other and and we get on um and
we're an example to the world. But look,
you know, it isn't we mustn't be
complacent about it. Now, there is
clearly tension at the moment as a
result of of what's going on. And I hear
what you say that it's that for many
people it's a distraction and it's and
it's because they feel disempowered. But
I mean what do we do about it? I mean
what should the government be doing?
>> I think the government needs to look to
address some of the issues that um exist
at the moment. So for example the NHS is
a big talking point when we come to any
conversation around
>> you know net migration because obviously
it's a resource um that is available to
people that that's in the UK. So I think
the government needs to look into
addressing those issues because you know
things like industrial action etc. those
things are going to continue to go on
until the government actually look and
think we've got a little bit of a
problem here. How can we look to make
those changes?
>> So you mean that when there's a time of
scarce resources particularly public
services the idea of more people coming
into the country and maybe competing for
those public services is something which
worries people. Is that what you're
saying?
>> Yeah. So even in my profession so I'm
actually a doctor you know for res for
resident doctors it's extremely
difficult because
>> um you are struggling to get in sort of
postgraduate training um programs you
know the number of GP training programs
core psychiatry training programs areas
where we really really do need doctors
and specialists um they're sort of
capped year
>> it's mad isn't it it's completely mad I
know we have we have shortages and yet
we can't train enough doctors even
though there are people wanting to do it
to fill the very vacancies that we have.
I mean, I know that West Streeting is
aware of this and we just have to do
something about it. I mean, it's
ridiculous, isn't it?
>> Yeah, it is. I mean, you know, it's it's
you've got really talented, able people
that want to do these positions, but,
you know, the number of places just
hasn't kept up with the number of
doctors that, you know, want to do those
jobs. But that really just comes down to
the government not really looking at the
fact that, okay, we need to do
something. Maybe we do need to increase
the number of training places. Maybe we
do need to expand the budget when it
comes to the NHS. I know that obviously
these things can't happen overnight. But
I think if the public are able to see
meaningful progress or um ideas brought
to the table, then they might start to
have a little bit more belief and
confidence. I think the other thing as
well is that I think we need to say more
often Karen that if it wasn't for for
migrants and their children the NHS
would have fallen over a long time ago
>> because the number of people who work in
you know from from migrant backgrounds.
>> Yeah. I think you know the UK obviously
has long relied on people from all
different backgrounds and I think it's
as you said something that should be
celebrated. You know diversity in any
workplace is always a good thing. Um
I think really people are just very you
know concerned with with some of the
issues that exist. You know the cost of
living you know young people even
at the moment. And
>> you know when you work hard and you're
not able to sort of achieve or meet
those basic things that you think to
yourself oh you know by now I should pro
probably be a homeowner or you know I
should be able to get a doctor's
appointment. Um that's when people then
start to get a little bit concerned and
then you know the the conversation sort
of starts to steer in other areas such
as migration.
>> Yeah. All right. Look, thank you ever so
much for ringing and thank you for your
thoughtful contribution, Karen. And good
luck. I hope you get your your training
contract.
>> The problem is the nation has been
radicalized for years. Absolutely years.
There's no way that that you you'd speak
to what people who consider themselves
as not racist and not right-wing but use
use loaded weaponized language like
undocumented
viking age uh illegal that kind of
stuff.
>> And I the reason I phoned in is is the
day after the general election having
been up for god knows how long I was I
was getting up to 40 hours by the time I
phoned in and I was very otherworldly.
>> But James said, "Why isn't everybody
celebrating?" And I told him then the
reason I'm not celebrating is Labour
would have Labour could have got in with
anything in the last general election.
You could have said anything and you'd
have got in
>> and you didn't make the case for
immigration.
>> Mhm.
>> And I think so so I don't blame you for
the radicalization. I blame you for not
starting the process of dradicalizing
people.
>> Well, some of us do. I mean, as I say,
you know, I'm proud to represent the
constituency that I represent and uh and
we wouldn't be who we were who we are
without uh without migration in
Islington and in London. Um and you
know, London does very well economically
and one of the reasons for that is
because we, you know, we've got people
from all backgrounds and people with
ambition who work hard and who are
tolerant and get on with each other and
learn from each other. I mean, this is
the essence of a of a successful
society. So, so, so why aren't you doing
things like saying, because you're in
power now, why are you doing things like
saying, well, why don't we take the
totally take the business model out of
the out of the people traffickers by
making safe and illegal routes for
asylum seekers because that would
immediately take the bottom. There would
be no there would be no need for small
boats. You so rather than try and be be
harsh on, you know, cr you smash the
small boats, you could actually just
remove the business model by making
safer legal routes. So I think so I
think this Jane I think that I think you
have to have an immigration system that
works and that has to be one which is
fair and fast and firm. You know when
you say no you mean no but you have to
have a system that works so that people
can get into the country in a fair way.
Um and but and also decisions need to be
made quickly, you know, one way or the
other. But I think that the I think that
uh what's been agreed with France, you
know, this one in one out that everyone
has been so critical of is actually the
beginnings of what you're saying when it
comes to you know getting yourself some
some proper roots into the country. So,
you know, the new deal with France is um
we're going to send back people who are
taking the mickey and in exchange we
will take people who have a who have who
already have some roots in this country
who might have you know an auntie who's
already here from Syria or you know
whatever it is and who's able to claim
asylum and a place that way so that we
can we can bring people in who we really
ought to be and it is the best place for
them to be is to come over to the UK
rejoin their family and claim asylum in
the in the UK. Okay. So, there are, you
know, the beginnings of of legal routes
for for some countries. We do have some,
obviously, we've got safe and legal
routes for people from Ukraine and Hong
Kong. Um, but I I hear what you're
saying that, you know, if you're from
Sudan, how do you get to to the UK in a
legal way? At the moment, there isn't a
legal route.
>> Precisely. Uh, so you're pushing at an
open door here. I agree with you, but
but but it still the language the
language is is all we're being tough on.
We're being tough on these P on you. you
know, you you're still as a government
using the word illegal when actually
it's technically irregular people
arriving here.
>> No, I understand you, but I think also
you need to be able to be heard by the
public. So, you have to meet people
halfway and you have to be able to say,
you know, we will be tough. I mean, if
someone is coming here taking advantage
of a system that we have where we want
to be able to give asylum to those who
are suffering, you know, within their
home countries who are who are fleeing
from war and torture. And we we we
appreciate that we have an obligation to
give them somewhere safe. And there are
those who take the mickey and who claim
that that's what they are, but they
they're not, you know, and they're
undermining our system. We have to be
tough on them because if because
otherwise the whole system collapses.
You need to have a system that people
believe in, which means you do need to
be tough on those who, as I say, just
take the mick.
>> Yeah. I mean, again, you're pushing us
an open door here. I agree. I agree
completely. I mean, you know, in in the
past, you could have wandered into if
you were in Sudan or Eritra, you could
have wandered into if you could have got
to one, got into a British embassy,
claimed asylum, be processed overseas,
and then bring your family over safely
and legally rather than have to, you
know, send your youngest man who's
capable of clinging to the bottom of a
of a truck through Syria on a boat
across uh across the channel, hope he
can get in, hope he can claim asylum,
and hope he can reunite his family. It's
just it's just so wrong. And and we need
to start we need to start dradicalizing
people. Again, I phone James um I
>> I phoned James about well probably about
three weeks I I've got a I've got a
asylum hotel. I've just worked it out
246 meters from my house.
>> That I've spent Well, we've actually
stopped. We had to count it. We had a
counter. I mean, I've had death threats.
Um it's not been nice. Um and
>> why have you had death threats?
>> Because I stood in front of a bunch of
screaming uh right-wingers.
>> Oh, I see. Okay. and suggested they
might like to be quiet.
>> Um, sorry I'm tearing up slightly.
>> But and we stopped doing a counter
demonstration because it was because it
was just irritating the locals and
scaring the people inside. But we've got
to do something. So you and James said,
"What you going to do?" At the time I
didn't know. But what what we have
actually done uh we've got we had a
meeting last Thursday we had about 30
local people all the local faith groups
um local business and we formed
something called Hoy Lake for all um
that's where I'm from
>> and we we're we're starting to do the
process of just like trying to build
some unity in what's left of the
community. Um,
>> well, you say what's Hang on, hang on,
hang on. Jane, Jane, don't don't don't
say things like that. You know, it's not
right. What's left of the community? I
mean, there is, you know, it's it's it's
it's going through a period of stress,
it sounds like, but I don't believe that
your community is is is dead. I don't
believe that. I don't believe that for a
minute.
>> I I I think the the the the riots and
the protests that have gone on uh since
Labour got into office are twofold.
partly because Nigel Farage is very good
at speaking to people of that mindset,
but also Karma is terrible at it. Um,
and he's made a lot of mistakes since
getting in and and Labour generally and
I'm going to be perfectly frank with
what I'm going to say because I think um
mistakes have been made when you say
about you know for example um use of
hotels are going down but as somebody
else on message has pointed out people
arriving illegally has gone up is going
up exponentially it feels like. So if
you're if you're not putting them in
hotels, but they're still coming to the
UK, what are you where are you going to
put them, you're still going to have
that problem. And it might be HMOs, it
might be private housing, that doesn't
solve the problem.
>> I think the decisions I think there's a
backlog as well. So I think that the
government's working really hard at
trying to clear the backlog where there
were I mean honestly they were
literally, you know, I mean, I had it
myself. I had people come to my
surgeries and just saying, I want to
have a decision made. They're not making
a decision. And the last government just
stopped making asylum decisions. And
that was part of the problem. So that
was also part. So so there's lots of
things that the government needs to do.
They need to clear the backlog. Um they
need to to to make sure that the
decisions are made faster. They need to
enforce those decisions so that if the
if people are not allowed to be here,
they need to be returned and that needs
to be they need to work on that. Um and
and they need to also try to discourage
people um from trying to come over to
this country to claim asylum if they
really aren't asylum seekers. As I say,
like I was saying about the campaign
that they're having in Vietnam to try to
make sure that the Vietnamese understand
that they're not going to be able to
come and and start a new life in the UK,
which will be anything other than
exploitation and misery.
>> I again, I just think that's I just
think you're missing the missing the
point there. I don't think whether
they're in Vietnam or they're in Syria
or in Afghanistan, I'm sure they were
aware of of people's uh sort of
reluctance to to welcome them to this
country, but they'll come anyway unless
there is a severe a severe deterrent
that is shown that that can be that can
work. And you know, whatever you want to
say about the previous government, I
mean, there was a lot of prime
ministers, but the the last one at least
was trying to implement something that
would be a deterrent whether you know it
was being challenged in courts or not.
The point is it the people coming here
they know if there's no deterrent
they'll try their luck
>> but they but hang on but hang on I mean
like let's look at what happened I mean
they introduced the illegal migration
act right and they said anybody coming
into the UK on a small boat is going to
be in illegal and they won't be allowed
to have asylum and they we won't even we
won't even discuss their case and they
built up 26,000 people because people
didn't stop coming they kept coming and
they couldn't send them all to Rwanda
even if Rwanda had been decided to be
legal
There wasn't enough space in Rwanda for
them to be able to send all their policy
was never big enough to be able to send
everyone to Rwanda. That was never going
to work. So they just didn't have
policies that were that were fit for
purpose and they knew it. And what get
what gets my goat is hearing, you know,
being lectured by the likes of Robert
Generick, who was one of the guys who
negotiated the hotel contracts in the
first place, you know, telling telling
the current government that they're
doing it all wrong. I think the
principle of of Rwanda would have been a
deterrent. So the idea is that you you
some people would be sent and therefore
that has a knock-on effect on the model
where people start worrying about
whether they would get sent to Rwanda or
not. And there was there was a notable
drop in arrivals when when Rwanda was
first being implemented if you remember.
Uh but when it started getting
challenged in courts and flights got get
start getting stopped that's when the
numbers started going back up again.
>> I think we might be rewriting history a
bit. Let me just ask you this though. Um
I mean are you buying what Farage is
selling? I mean what do you think about
what he says? Because he's saying kind
of the same sort of thing. He's saying,
you know, he's going to deport everybody
that if anybody comes over in a small
boat, that's it. They're they're all
being sent back. Um including women and
children. I mean, do you think that's a
good starting point?
>> Well, absolutely not. I mean but the
problem is it's seductive language now
because I mean look if you look at the
optics and rightly or wrongly in this
country now this become this has become
a real issue for a lot of people in the
UK because they are seeing a lot of
single men hanging around hotels usually
from Africa or the Middle East not
generally other areas with no kids or
women around them often because those
are men only hotels and that's just a
cultural thing of those people who come
here they can't be in a hotel with women
and children. Well, wow. Whoa, whoa,
whoa. Hang on. What? What? But these are
single men who can't be can't who can't
be trusted with women and children.
>> Why? Why? Why do they have hotels for
only for for men?
>> Well, I think it's probably because
there's more men coming over on their
own than women and children. I mean, I
think that's a fact.
>> And that's that's that's I'm glad you
mentioned that because I I mentioned the
researcher that there was a Labour MP
that suggested the opposite once on on
on television. And again, that's another
matter that people look at and suggest
that why why are Labour not telling us
the facts when there actually are huge
amounts of single men coming over from
those areas from countries that a
culturally have issues that have wars as
well and it will make them more
difficult to integrate into this country
with those backgrounds.
>> Well, we have always offered sanctuary
to people who've come from war zones and
people who have been the victims of
torture. And of course it's difficult
for them because they've come halfway
across the world and they have they come
with the trauma that they've that
they've suffered. But you know what are
you to do? We're human beings. They're
human beings. We have a we have a duty
to help, don't we?
>> Absolutely we do. I mean and like I say,
I come from a a background of immigrants
that arrived in this country from a you
know from a from a um from the
Commonwealth. Uh so there may be some
connection with Commonwealth countries
that have similarities with Britain.
However, those the F family and others
that came followed a legal process and
it feels cheat you feel cheated when
people jump the queue in many ways when
they are not necessarily you know coming
legitimately through you know an asylum
uh reason.
>> Yeah. No. Well, I think that's fair
enough. I mean I can't I absolutely and
it's well put that point revive and I
think I think that's the point about
having an immigration and asylum system
that works. You people have to have
confidence in it. They have to know that
if you are given asylum in this country,
it is because you have suffered, you
know, because you have come from a war
zone, because you have been raped,
because you have been tortured. You need
to have sanctuary. And we're offering
sanctuary. And that's why it's really
important that we process people
quickly, that we're firm about decisions
that we make, and that we return people.
And that is what the government needs to
be doing. But they are doing it from a
standing start, Rajie. I mean, that's
the point.
>> Yeah, absolutely. I mean look the the
system inherited was was bad. um you
know and I I I I will say that the
towards the end of the Tory government
they were trying to make moves to
getting things right but it was probably
too little too late by that stage and
now you you know Labour have got a lot
on their hands not just with this with
the economy with taxation what are the
right choices to make what are the wrong
choices
>> and I think people looking at people
looking around the the you know other
other British citizens if they see
people you know of different color or
whatever who kind of clearly come from a
background where you know there has been
migration in the family they need to be
everyone needs to be confident that that
that people are here legally and they're
here they're here for the right reasons
and that if you have an asylum system or
an immigration system that breaks down
then it isn't just the recent migrants
who are affected it's also people who
have been here for many generations
because it'll simply feed prejudice
against them. Don't you agree?
>> Absolutely. As somebody from that
background I agree but I never I've
never felt experienced that level. No,
there's always been racism in this
country, but it feels like this is
another level of racism being created
because people will be suspicious of
whether you came here legally or not or
whether you game the system.
>> No, I understand. I understand what
you're saying and and and the worry is